still looking for a refutation of determinism (aren't we all?). Please take a crack at this one . . . .thanks,?

There are trends indicating human ability to make choices in real time is greater than some (e.g., Libet) experiments have indicated. e.g., http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-01-free-mechanisms-involved-decision-making.html This is interesting re types of creativity or affect-related use of choice: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-01-mind-blue-emotional-affects-brain.html "Man, Master of His Destiny," and "The Answer You're Looking for Is inside You" are also worthwhile.

People fly in their dreams. They don't need any of the flying machines and such that they need when they are awake. Are people who fly in their dreams doing so by violating the physical laws of the universe? No, they're not; their physical selves aren't flying. Only conceptual representations of their selves are flying; only within their minds are they flying. Concepts have no physical existence. They exist only within minds. Having no physical existence, they are not subject to the laws that govern the physical universe. Yes, minds and concepts are generated by physical processes, but those physical processes are not the minds or concepts themselves. The mathmatical concept of points, lines, and planes don't exist in the physical universe; they don't exist because to exist, they would have to violate the physical laws of the universe. Our minds are composed of concepts, concepts aren't physical, and they're not subject to the physical laws of the universe. Our actions are often governed by our minds. Our choices are made by a non-physical thing that is not subject to the physical laws of a deterministic universe.

That I have the choice to "take a crack" at this question or not seems to me to be an example of choice and a refutation of determinism.

Again, no free willer would ever accept the idea that their actions have no EFFECTS so they are consciously supporting the chain of causes and effects when they pronounce free will exists. No free will person ever said "cause and effect is wrong and your actions never have any consequences. Consequences are the reason free will is bogus. And the absence of consequences makes free will irrelevant.

Please do not give me the Best Answer. People always ask for the closest thing to a unicorn then give best answer to the person who says "there are no unicorns." Saying there is no answer to your problem is definitely not the best answer. Just the correct one.

Here's a pretty fair crack at it...

http://www.drchinese.com/David/Hume's_Determinism_Refuted.htm

Still looking for a refutation of determinism (aren't we all?). Please take a crack at this one . . . .thanks,?

~~~ Every moment of Universal existence already exists, and can never be 'changed', can never be 'otherwise'!
What is, is, and will always be!
There is no 'refutation'.

And, no, some of us are quite fine with Reality as it is!

I yield the floor to the distinguished philosopher Robert Kane, who has written often and well on this subject:

"[I]ndeterminism does not have to be involved in all acts done 'of our own free wills' for which we are ultimately responsible, as argued earlier. Not all such acts have to be undetermined, but only those by which we made ourselves into the kinds of persons we are, namely 'self-forming actions' or SFAs. Now I believe these undetermined self-forming actions or SFAs occur at those difficult times of life when we are torn between competing visions of what we should do or become. Perhaps we are torn between doing the moral thing or acting from ambition, or between powerful present desires and long term goals, or we are faced with a difficult tasks for which we have aversions. In all such cases, we are faced with competing motivations and have to make an effort to overcome temptation to do something else we also strongly want. There is tension and uncertainty in our minds about what to do at such times, I suggest, that is reflected in appropriate regions of our brains by movement away from thermodynamic equilibrium--in short, a kind of 'stirring up of chaos' in the brain that makes it sensitive to micro-indeterminacies at the neuronal level. The uncertainty and inner tension we feel at such soul-searching moments of self-formation is thus reflected in the indeterminacy of our neural processes themselves. What is experienced internally as uncertainty then corresponds physically to the opening of a window of opportunity that temporarily screens off complete determination by influences of the past. (By contrast, when we act from predominant motives or settled dispositions, the uncertainty or indeterminacy is muted....)"

Love and kindness is all you need to get what you want.

When I was young I had lots of will. I was able to determine many things in my life. Now I still have some will but not as determined as it used to be. No I am not looking for a refutation of determinism. Not if I am to continue being one of the determinant factors in my life. And then my life will be determined by such factors as age and my ability to continue to determine what I do. At which point it will probably be determined by others and I will no longer have any determination in the matter.

From the link below. Here is the definition for determinism "the belief that all events are caused by things that happened before them and that people have no real ability to make choices or control what happens"

Google's definition the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

Unlike Happy Hiram whom I respect I think we as human beings have the ability to make choices in our life. That this is the whole crux of free will. And that our choices do have consequences of our own making.

There are a few reasons to support this. Two that come to my readily is one of Jonah and the Whale and his preaching to Nineveh that God would bring judgement in 49 days if the city did not repent of it's sin. And the whole city repented and God turned his anger from doing harm.

Another example is that found in Isaiah 38. Hezekiah the king who was sick and the prophet Isaiah had told him he would die. But Hezekiah prayed to God and God heard the prayer and told the prophet to tell the kind he would give him 12 more years to live.

In the criminal justice system. If a person is not responsible for his actions or choices. Then where is justice found? Do we let him go free? No. We imprison him for circumstances that were beyond his control that caused him to commit a crime. That logic does sound right to me. That person had a choice to do right or to do wrong. And he chose to do wrong.

Of course this is all my humble opinion.

A repudiation of all the views regarding anything other than my own poetry and philosophy, with retrospect was now innocent and naive in its adjudging others by my own standards and values. They all cited religion and rulers as wicked and I didn't but now know better

Determination when at odds with the dignity rights or wellbeing and freedom of another is always rightly refuted by humanitarians until it desists. My truth and my libertarian morality offends those who aren't and I am tormented

I have shed the sense of needing to write to opinionate or to vent or to share my thoughts with others for they are not I and I Am not them. My truth therefore is not theirs nor theirs mine. For I am not you and You are not I. .

So societies determination in anything is invariably countermanded by the other half who indubitably are at odds with it. I know nothing if I know not this. My mind is fragile and I am tormented. All great minds oftentimes have lives tormented because of the aforementioned Truths.

I am at peace with my own thinking and my own mind soul and spirit mostly. To live ones libertarian beliefs, moral integrity and hedonist values is easy for me and not for others. I suppose exiling myself initself is a refutation of a society and world, and why would any care about me. Just Me Myself I wandering through the beautiful world.

Life as a cruise visiting many ports of ancient and magical awe. And so to return home. A Worldly predestined end, a life as a testimony to the lives and exiles of my spirits gone before, what they endured, and still. Stil we remain as scrupulous whether rich or poor, confined or liberated, home or abroad. Being as a thinking class the creators of our heavens in mind word and actions.

This is my first and very last post to supersede all former posts and views. May I be blessed with a supreme solitary silence within and the company of my loved ones about.

The universe is a gigantic deterministic system, there's no refuting it, sorry. We and our brains are a part of that deterministic system, which means even our actions are predetermined.However, millions of things came together to make me exactly who I am, so obviously the universe "wants" me to be a certain way. Why not embrace the illusion?