DS: Test breeding...?

The dog would be scrapped from the breeding program. It makes no sense to me to breed a dog that has ALL the good qualities, but ends up producing dogs that are half crippled. If you remember, I DID have a dog with severe Hip Dysplasia, which really has nothing to do with your question as she was just a couch potato pet Bulldog. The point is, why make a dog that will eventually be rendered as useless? No point really, IMO. There's no need for any potential puppy buyers to go into a sale with a *I wonder* attitude. Understandably, any well bred dog can potentially end up with a health problem, but why breed a dog with a health problem to begin with. Nope, I wouldn't do it. There are always other fish in the sea.

I will NOT breed anything that has any kind of structure problem or health problem. It will only compound the problem down the line. Breeders that believe they can overcome bad hips by using a sire or dam with excellent rating are merely making an excuse, not helping the breed eradicate the bad hips. One bad breeding can ruin the whole line, whether its hips, eyes, or any other problem that is genetically caused.
When my particular breed was found to have an overabundance of PRA, test breedings were started and records kept. One of the top breeders of my breed at the time found her top stud was a carrier and she spayed and neutered her whole kennel so she was not passing this on any longer. Now THAT is a good breeder.

Here is the reality behind your question. MOST dogs that belong to REAL working kennels have fair hips, not great, fair and they do get bred, a lot if they can produce all that a working dog person wants. Now, most REAL working dog people are interested in what that dog will offer during its working life, if it gets retired at 8 years old instead of 10, no big deal, they will get another one. In 33 years of working with these types of dogs, I have very rarely seen an OFA excellent dog or its equivalent.
Hope I helped.

I have to answer with a question....
How bad are the hips? Were they re-submitted to OFA?

Failing OFA doesn't necessarily mean bad hips. I'd have to evaluate the xray myself. They regularly "fail" hips (2 say good....one says EXTREMELY dysplastic....or 2 say bad, 1 says good), and on resubmission, get 3 "excellent" ratings. It's not really what most vets specialize in.

ADD: I'm asking "theoretically". IS the dog extremely dysplastic....or "minor"? Either way, most of the time, the vet doesn't know if he's looking at a hip or a spine.

It happens in our breed all the time because the reality is, you can have two dogs with excellent hips and have pups with DJD or HD. You can have two average dogs and have all great hips in the pups. Testing is not really, truly valid unless you are testing every pup in every litter (lateral and horizontal knowledge) Unfortunately, the science lags behind the ideal. No one I know breeds dogs that are symptomatic, but the fact is that OFA and PennHip are based on educated guesses. A study was done where readers at OFA and Penn Hip were given films to evaluate. Several months later they were given the same films again. Penn Hip readers agreed with themselves about 70% of the time. OFA agreed with themselves at a rate of slightly better than chance. And we are depending on them to decide which dogs should and should not be bred?? The thing is to *know* what you have so you can attempt to improve on it in the next generation.

I would not use a dysplastic dog.

I would use an OFA fair in the right conditions, but not dysplastic

No. I would not breed a dog that has failed any one of its certifications. Then again, I'm not a breeder nor would I ever be.

We foster a CH Golden Retriever. He is fully certified and now used for stud. His hips are rated the best of any of his breeder's dogs, and she has them re-certified regularly. She will not breed a dog that does not pass all tests.

We fostered one of her puppies that she purchased in the US from another breeder. Gorgeous little girl from a long line of champions (all certified). The puppy was getting into trouble with the other dogs on site, she asked us to take her to see how she would manage.

Our report after the first month was that we couldn't bond with her. Our most diligent housebreaking methods didn't work. She was fine with our dog (a female Golden) but seemed iffy with others but since she was so young, we decided to set up puppy play dates for her.

During the second month, we still had difficulty bonding with her. I took her for a week up to the cottage, just the two of us, and she remained detached and stand-offish. Nothing animated her, nothing excited her.

During the third month, we met weekly with a group of friends who have dogs of all ages for them to play. What I saw during those playdates was a display of poor temperament. At 7 months of age, even fully socialized with other dogs and people the way she was, she was miserable with dogs. Snarly, snappy, hackles up, posturing, neck arched. Since she was supposed to be destined for the show ring, we notified the breeder.

She was picked up by the breeder and sent to a behaviorist for a week. The result was that she had a substandard temperament. The breeder spayed her and sold her as a pet with full disclosure. She lost a bundle of money but she could not possibly show, certify, and breed a dog with a poor temperament.

I don't pretend to be knowledgeable enough to breed, but I see the results of poor breeding practices all over the place.

Well, limited experience here, but the breeder I know who has a contract with the Police in various Provinces to provide working GSD's does not breed dogs with poor hips. Period.

She has spayed an import (read very expensive) that developed food allergies and sold it at a loss. She has one of the highest standards I have seen in the country for working dogs - and she has maintained her relationship with Police for the last few decades because of her ethics and high standards.

Having said all that, failing is what?

Years ago I had a Doberman x-rayed by a vet (my regular vet was away) and she sat me down and told me the dog had some serious cardio problems. I forget the details - but she told me to expect the worst. She advised I get a specialist opinion.

So I took the dog to Guelph Ontario - and had an expert cardiologist look at the same x-ray. He told me it was the position of the dog and how the x-ray was taken and said basically, this vet was full of shyte and that nothing was wrong with my dogs heart.

X-rays are a measure - interpreting them is another skill entirely separate. Scoring is often biased, and its not 100% objective. So, I suppose in all of this the words "it depends" applies. Some dogs can move well and xray fair - but a dog that has any hesitation in movement and shows up on x-ray as questionable is why I would expect at least 2 opinions on a dog that was sketchy.

There was a recent post (actually a few months ago) about the different standards in hip scoring - I think the consensus was Penn Hip was better - but since I have not been actively researching this I could be corrected and not even sure I have the context correct.

I've never bred before (probably never will) but I would not breed a dog with imperfect hips (or any other genetic health defect) to a dog with 'perfect' hips - it would be too much of a risk to the puppies. They can easily inherit bad hips (or any other health defect from the Sire or Dam). And The unstable hip joint could easily lead to OA. Like I said, too big of a risk.

would not breed this dog, unless there is a reason, like he is grand champion and has an IPO 3 or monio titles, and then probably would not breed anyway. There are thousands of mediocre dogs, working and other wise out there. WE do not need more. We only need to have the best of the best bred... What happens when 1/2 or more of the pups get those bad hips, and cannot compete. . You do not need those hips sitting in the sidellines waiting to show up in pups or grandpups. NO NO NO > Start with another female. If you are true to the breed you will not bring more un-'almost' perfect dogs into the world.. If you just want a pup from your ***** ,, you will breed. I am glad you are not breeding. I for one don't want another dog that has any problem.... And when you say FAILED OFA I assume you mean the OFA recommmends not using this dog ?? Meaning the dog isn't even "borderline" it is dysplastic?? what rating, MIld moderate or severe? You know better...in your heart and I would hope others do as well.

It would depend on a lot of things. How bad is it? there are some that no way would i think should be bred. Others are more borderline cases.
Might it be the position of the xray? Is it worth having it re done & evaluated ?
How are the scores of this dog's littermates, parents, grandparents, ancestors, older siblings? If it's a whole line of bad hips that is different than if this is an anomaly.

If in this hypothetical situation an OFA Mild dog really did have the other qualities you mention and had siblings & parents w/ good hips it might be worthwhile to breed to a dog w/ good or excellent hips from a line that has a history of improving hips, if the breeder is honest with the buyers about it and breeder & buyers are agreed about how it will be handled if there is a problem.
It helps that in your hypothetical situation it's working homes rather than possibly naive pet buyers.

Reading radiographs is almost an art form. I think I recently answered a question on here - someone took their dog to an emergency vet whom, based on xrays taken, recommended the dog be hospitalized and put on oxygen support. When the same xrays were taken to their regular vet, the regular vet (in the asker's words) basically said the emergency vet was full of sh!t and there was nothing wrong with the xrays.

One vet was obviously seeing something (or NOT seeing something) the other vet wasn't. And as much as people in general like to rant and believe, most vets are NOT out there to rip you off, take all your money, and treat your pet unnecessarily. Not only does that risk their license and the clinic's reputation, but believe it or not most people in the veterinary field actually LIKE animals. Duh...

Im sorry, off topic... lol. That being said, you would HOPE OFA officials would have the expertise to put a right label on a dog's hips. Like Dutch says, that doesn't always happen...

It would depend on the rating and on how I personally felt the radiographs looked. Remember, even a fair is considered some MILD dysplasia, but does a fair REALLY mean the animal is dysplastic? Turning the leg out slightly too far can cause the head of the femur to appear shallow in the acetabulum. I also know some breeders that won't guarantee against dysplasia if the OFA rads were taken under sedation... sedation, of course, causes muscle relaxation, and may cause the head of the femur to appear shallow in the acetabulum.

Too many variables to answer in black and white, unless of course realistic situations were presented lol

Plus, I'm not a breeder as it is



EDIT: I guess I should clarify... fair doesn't TECHNICALLY cover mild dysplasia, that would be mild... lol BUT fair does mean they are viewing SOME kind of abnormality. And the definitions are too vague for me to NOT believe that some mild dysplasias are marked as fair.

I wouldn't breed any dog with a known genetic failing or weakness. I wouldn't breed any dog that didn't have an excellent temperament.
There are millions of poorly bred dogs and whole breeds that are genetically ******.
In my view no intentional breeding should occur without knowing that the chances are you will be producing healthy, happy and all round excellent dogs.