Do Jehovah's Witnesses have any idea what Christian Trinity is? Do they teach another trinity?

Greetings,

True Christians do not believe in the Trinity.

Further, some Trinitarians are not educated in the fact that Trinitarian scholars and theologians themselves cannot agree on the "correct" Trinitarian belief.

Now as a rule, Witnesses understand that so-called "orthodox" Trinitarians teach there is not one person nor three gods in one god, but there are three "persons" in one God.

However, there are a few Witnesses who do not understand this and I am constantly educating them.

But to be fair many lay Trinitarians also do not understand this. And the biggest difficulty is because of Trinitarians who explain their belief as "three Gods." I also constantly have to educate Trinitarian laity that the Trinity goes beyond just three persons and actually teaches that the three are mystically united as one substance and thus equally God.

And, the ultimate and final argument of Trinitarians is: "It's a mystery" which demonstrates that there is not a Trinitarian on earth who understands the Trinity either.

Further, part of the problem is because the logical fallacy of Equivocation is built into the main definitions of the Trinity. (This fallacy is employed when terms crucial to an argument are not used in the same sense throughout the argument.)

In the words of the Athanasian Creed: ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.'

If we take these words in a "normal" way it is easy to see how people understand that there are three Gods in one God. However, a Trinitarian educated in the technicalities of the Trinity automatically will redefine the word "God" in two different senses: In the three initial instances here the word "God" means "one of the persons within the Godhead." However, in the last occurrence when it says "one God" it means "collectively the three persons of the divine being" or the "consubstantial Triad." If they did not equivocate on the meaning of the word God, then we would actually have: "the Father is ‘the consubstantial Triad,' the Son is ‘the consubstantial Triad,' and the Holy Spirit is ‘the consubstantial Triad,' but there are not three ‘consubstantial Triads,' but one ‘consubstantial Triad.' Or the reverse using the definition of God as "a person within the Godhead." When Trinitarians see the word "God" they arbitrarily jump from defining it as "one person in the Godhead" to "the triad Godhead" according to their theological bias otherwise there is a contradiction.

Trinitarians must resort to the fallacy of equivocation in every scripture which explicitly separates Christ from "God." For example, Trinitarians cannot interpret Jn.1:1 without equivocating as above or mentally replacing the word "God" with "Father," because while they can have the Father WITH Christ they cannot have two "God's" WITH each other.

Further, many, if not all, of the explanations illustrating the Trinity amount to tri-theism. For instance, the common explanations of the Trinity such as "It's like one man can be a Father, husband, and son" or a "husband, wife and son all having one nature" or "an egg consists of shell, white, and yolk" or "one person consisting of soul, spirit and flesh," and etc. All these either fall into the category of tritheistic or modalistic descriptions which are heretical to Trinitarians.

The Trinitarian Alister E. McGrath says of such descriptions: "We are asked to imagine three human beings. Each of them is distinct; yet they share a common humanity. So it is with the Trinity there are three distinct persons, yet with a common divine nature. When all is said and done, this analogy leads directly to an understated tritheism." "While Gregory may wish us to think of "Peter, James and John" as different instances of the same human nature, the more natural way of interpreting the illustration is to think of them as three distinct and independent individuals"


When all is said and done the Trinity remains an unexplainable and incomprehensible "mystery." It is exactly what Jesus said was wrong with the Samaritans: "you worship what you do not know." Because of this inherent confusion it is no wonder that Trinitarians themselves must resort to logic and analogies which reasonable people understand as indicating three Gods.

On the other hand, the Bible is very clear (Jn.17:3; 1Cor.8:6).

Everywhere in the Bible God is separate and distinct from Christ. Christ is always presented as less than Almighty God (Jn. 14:28; 20:17; Mk.13:32; 1Cor.15:27,28; Rev.3:2,12). At the highest position he will ever attain, Jesus still has a God over him and is "subject" to *GOD* the same way we are "subject" to him.


Yours,

BAR-ANERGES

no. we don't believe in a man made doctrine that was made up in 323 CE.
of course u already know what we believe

Jehovah´s Witnesses don´t teach about any pagan Trinity as Christendom´s Churches do. There is no Holy Trinity. The teaching of the Trinity as well as the immortality of the soul and hellfire stems from Babylon The Great, the World Empire of False religion, not from the Bible.

You asked... And I quote:
"Do Jehovah's Witnesses have any idea what Christian Trinity is?"

The real question is... Do YOU have any idea what Christendoms teaching of the Trinity is yourself (and does YOUR belief HARMONIZE with the beliefs of other professed "Christians" of the religious churches of Christendom? Jehovah's Witnesses WORLDWIDE are in HARMONIOUS UNITY in our beliefs concerning the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit)?

How do you expect us to have any idea as to what the Trinity of Christendom is when the religious clergy, scholars and members of Christendoms churches can't even come to united agreement as to the exact definition of what the Trinity is? I mean seriously, think about it, regarding the Trinity, the Athanasian Creed (in English) says that its members are “incomprehensible” and teachers of the doctrine often state that it is a “mystery”.

For example, it is a undeniable FACT that Trinity is the central doctrine of religions of Christendom.

According to the Athanasian Creed (which many who profess to believe and support the Trinity have no idea of), there are THREE divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), EACH are said to be eternal, EACH are said to be almighty, NONE are greater or less than another, EACH are said to be God, and yet together being but only one God (this is completely out of harmony with what Jesus said about he and his Father at John 14:28, but hey, whatever).

Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God, or that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Jehovah.

It is a well known FACT that members of the united worldwide CHRISTIAN congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses engage in a public Ministry of which like Jesus, the apostles and first century Christians, we GO TO PEOPLE of various nations, backgrounds and walks of life. In so doing we meet with various individuals who believe in the Trinity, however, we also find that they ARE NOT in agreement as to what the Trinity is and or how to define it. There are some Trinity believers who believe in the way in which the Trinity is stated by the Athanasian Creed and likewise there are supporters of the Trinity who DO NOT believe in the way the Athanasian Creed states the Trinity as.

Therefore, how can you ask we who are Jehovah's Witnesses if WE have any idea what the Trinity is? We don't believe in and or support the Trinity in any way, shape, fashion or form... YOU do.

We don't have a "version" of the Trinity either. We don't believe in, support or worship a Trinity at all whatsoever.

According to Matthew 3:16, when Jesus was baptized, God, Jesus, and the holy spirit were mentioned IN THE SAME CONTEXT just as they are at Matthew 28:19, 20. Matthew 3:16 states that Jesus "saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him." This, however, DOES NOT say that the three are one and the same, just as Matthew 28:19, 20 does not state that they are one and the same. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are mentioned together numerous times, but that DOES NOT make them one and the same. Peter, James, and John are named together, but that does not make them one and the same either. Furthermore, God's spirit descended upon Jesus at his baptism, showing that Jesus was not anointed by spirit until THAT time. This being so, how could he be part of a Trinity where he had ALWAYS been one with the holy spirit?

???

Another reference that speaks of the three together is found in some older Bible translations at 1 John 5:7. Scholars acknowledge, however, that these words WERE NOT ORIGINALLY in the Bible but were ADDED MUCH LATER. Most modern translations RIGHTLY OMIT this spurious verse.

Other so called Trinity "proof texts" deal only with the relationship between TWO—the Father and Jesus, not THREE.

As far as the ONENESS that Jesus has with His Father (John 10:30), he himself explains exactly what he meant by this ONENESS at John 17:11, 21 and it is obvious that he was talking about ONENESS of UNITY in THOUGHT and PURPOSE... Not oneness in being one and the same person in equality and authority (that is, unless ALL Christians somehow become part of the so called mysterious Trinity).

Jehovah's Witnesses both believe and KNOW that Jesus Christ is exactly who he himself said that he is... The Son of God Almighty, or more specifically, God's only-begotten Son. We approach God Almighty in prayer and worship THROUGH Jesus Christ. We believe in THE SON OF GOD (not "God the Son).

Yes we know what the Churches are teaching: that God and his son are one person and equal but that concept is not Biblical so we don't teach or believe it as it is a man made doctrine fashioned by men in about the 4th century, it is a pagan teaching and a lie. why should we believe a lie when the truth is in the Bible?

The trinity isnt true. The bible doesnt support it at all. Jehovah, jesus and the holy spirit are not the same. We dont have any trinity teaching and only prove from the bible it is not true.

1 corinthians 11:3 jehovah is the head of christ.

As Jehovah Witnesses, we do have an understanding of what the some Christians believe in is the Trinity.

Jehovah Witnesses do not have a version of what the Trinity is. We do not believe in the Trinity. The Father, the Son, and the holy spirit (ghost) cannot be the same persons.

Jehovah Witnesses believe in Jehovah God and Jesus Christ to be individuals. The holy spirit is God's active force. We do not believe it is a person.

Yes the know the trinity is crap, no wonder religion breeds atheism

Of course Jehovah's Witnesses know about the pagan teaching of a 'christian' trinity.
They know it is not a bible teaching.They also know it was fused in with apostate christianity in the 4th century CE.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a version of a trinity because again it is not a bible teaching.
The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one Almighty God and his name is Jehovah.
Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of Almighty God.Jesus was the first born of all creation.
Jesus is mighty but he is not almighty.He is the Son of God and not God the Son.
The Holy Spirit is not a person but is Jehovah God's active force.What God uses to accomplish his purposes.

Contrary to many confused minds on here, JW's are well aware of what the trinity is and, sorry to bust your bubble, but there is nothing holy about it. It's a doctrine invented by men 300 years after Christ by a counsel presided by a pagan roman emperor.

As BAR-ANERGES pointed out to you, TRUE Christians don't believe in the trinty, that's why we reject it.

Take Jesus' words as truth in John 17:3, your salvation depends on it:

This is eternal life, that they may know You (THE FATHER), the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. ("THE FATHER" added and caps added for emphasis)

So Christ recognized his FATHER as the ONLY true God. Now, if the Father is the ONLY true God, and I assume that you know what ONLY means, then, what does that make Jesus?

According to Jesus your salvation depends on knowledge of the Father and Christ! Why is not the HS not included!?

aaHAH! finally...someone admits christianity is polytheistic.

with time trinity changes!

They have no idea.

The name Elohim is plural. ie elohim means gods so Elohim would mean Gods but because God is infinite then Infinite + Infinite + Infinite = Infinite hence God being a trinity still makes God just one God.
But they claim it is majestic plural which is a fat lie, no where in the bible does God call himself majestic plural. Elohim means Trinity!

I think they know what it means, they just don't accept the trinity idea.

There are many different understandings about this teaching. We have to ask the Trinitarian what they think the trinity is before we can enter a conversation about it.

The most acknowledged teaching about the trinity is that the trinity defines God as three divine persons (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in one God). They are three distinct persons that are co-equal, co-eternal and co-substantial. Each person has the same divine nature.

This is not a Bible teaching. In order to defend the Bible we must know what the false teachings are.

No, somehow they can't fathom the Holy Trinity as Three Distinct Persons in One God, and yet somehow they can understand their faithful and discreet slave (singular) as 144,000 distinct persons in one slave! They can't see the "Name" of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is united as one singular "Name", so how can they understand the Holy Trinity, as the only united persons they can understand is their own slave!

They dont believe in the trinity...They look at God as a certain individual rather then a spirit...it is this reasons why they dont understand the trinity, which in fact most of us dont understand but its a spiritually divine link...JW cant understand that Holy spirit,Jesus and God are one in "spirit" not in form. Hope that helps :) God bless!!

They know what it is, and they reject it. This is why they came up with The New World Translation of The Bible. They either removed or re-worded verses that prove the deity or Godhood of Christ. They make him to be a lesser being than The Father.

In addition, they redefine well established Christian terms so as to set themselves apart from orthodox Christianity. You can see this in a few answers above mine.

lol. they have big god jehovah, little god the invisible archangel michael, and gods active force directed organization.

and if they think THAT is what the bible really teaches, what credibility do they have to pronounce what is true and what is false?


the bible is clear.
the father is god
the son is god
the holy spirit is god
there is only one god

but if you follow a magazine publishing company, you accept 2 of these as true, and then learn their convoluted arguments against the other 2, then call it "truth".

The Jehovah's Witnesses have time and time again on here have BUTCHERED the true Christian Trinity. Every single argument they make is nothing but modalist garbage. They have resorted to saying the argument that Trinitarian theologians can't agree on what the Trinity is. True, but that doesn't mean that the Trinity doesn't exist. Not everyone believes in the "idea" of a God, does that mean God doesn't exist because not everyone agrees? They don't teach a Trinity, they teach what they consider ideal and what suits them.

Here is a list of the scriptures that include all three members of the Trinity:

Genesis 1:26 Us, Our
2 Sam. 23:2,3 Spirit, God, Rock.
Is. 6:3,8 King, LORD Almighty, Lord,
Is.42:1 "I", Chosen One, Spirit.
Is.48:12,16,17 First and last, Spirit, God.
Is.63:10-16 Holy Spirit, Lord, Father.
Hag. 2: 5-7 Holy Spirit, LORD Almighty, Desire of All Nations.

Matt.1:20-23 Holy Spirit, Jesus, God.
3:16,17 Jesus, Spirit of God.
4:1-3 Jesus, Spirit, God.
10:5-20 Jesus, Spirit, Father.
12:25-32 Spirit, God, Son of Man..
22:37-43 Jesus, Lord, God, Christ, Spirit.
28:19 Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Mark 1:1:8 Jesus Christ, God, Holy Spirit.
3:29-35 Holy Spirit, Jesus, God.

Luke1:30-35 God, Jesus, Holy Spirit.
1:41-49 Holy Spirit, Lord, Mighty One.
2:25-28 Holy Spirit, Lord Christ Jesus, God.
4:1-3 Jesus, Holy Spirit, Son of God.
9:21 Holy Spirit, Father, Lord of heaven and earth.
11:1-13 Jesus, Father, Holy Spirit.
12:1-12 Jesus, God, Holy Spirit,

John 1:29-34 Lamb of God, Holy Spirit, Son of God.
3:5-6 Jesus, Spirit, God.
3:3,35 Spirit, Father, Son.
6:63-65 Spirit, Jesus, Father.
14:9-20 Jesus, Counselor, Father.
14:23-25 Jesus, Father, Counselor.
15:24-16:3 Father, Counselor, Spirit of Truth.
16:7-19 Counselor, Father, Jesus.
20:21,22 Jesus, Father, Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:1-3 Jesus, Holy spirit, God.
1:6-11 Father, Holy Spirit, Jesus.
2:17-22 God, Spirit, Jesus.
2:32-39 Father, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ.
4:8-10 Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, God.
4:24-27 God, Holy Spirit, Jesus.
4:30,31 Jesus, Holy Spirit, God.
5:29-32 God, Prince of Peace, Holy Spirit.
7:48-56 Most High, Holy Spirit, Righteous One, Son of Man, Lord Jesus.
8:14-17 God, Holy Spirit, Lord Jesus.
9:17-20 Lord, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Son of God.
10:38 God, Jesus, Holy Spirit.
10:46-48 God, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ.
11:16,17 Holy Spirit, Lord Jesus Christ, God.
11:20 Lord Jesus, God, Holy Spirit.
13:48-52 Lord, God, Holy Spirit.
15:8-11 God, Holy Spirit, Lord Jesus.
16:6-10 Holy Spirit, Spirit of Jesus, God.
19:4-7 Lord Jesus, Holy Spirit, God.
20:21,22 God, Lord Jesus, Spirit.
20:23,24 Holy Spirit, Lord Jesus, God.

Rom.1:1-4 Spirit, Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord.
8: 1-4 Christ Jesus, Spirit, God.
8:9,10 Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ.
8:15-17 Father, Spirit, Christ.
8:27-34 Spirit, God, Jesus Christ.
9:1-5 Christ, Holy Spirit, God.
14:15-18 Christ, God, Holy Spirit.
15:6-13 Father, Lord Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit.
15:15-19 Christ Jesus, God, Holy Spirit.
15:30 Lord Jesus Christ, Spirit, God.

1 Cor. 2:2-5 Jesus Christ, Spirit, God.
2:10-16 Spirit of God, Christ.
3:16-23 God, Spirit, Christ.
6:13-20 God, Christ, Holy Spirit.
12:2-6 Spirit of God, Jesus, Holy Spirit.
12:12-18 Christ, Spirit, God.

2 Cor.3:3-6 Christ, Spirit, God.
3:14-18 Christ, Spirit of the Lord, God.
5:5-10 God, Spirit, Christ.
13:14 Lord Jesus Christ, God, Holy Spirit.

Gal.3:1-5 Jesus Christ, Spirit, God.
4:4-7 Son, Spirit, Father.
5:21-23 God, Spirit, Christ Jesus.
6:17 Spirit, God the Father, Lord Jesus Christ.

Phil.2:1-6 Christ, Spirit, God.
3:3 Spirit, God, Christ Jesus.

Col. 1:6-8 God, Christ, Spirit,

1 Thess. 1:3,4 Lord Jesus Christ, God, Holy Spirit.
1:6-10 Holy Spirit, God, Jesus.
4:1-8 Lord Jesus, God, Holy Spirit.
5:16-24 Spirit, God, Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess. 2:13-14 God, Spirit, Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Tim.4:1-6 Spirit, God, Christ Jesus.

2 Tim. 1:8-14 God, Christ Jesus, Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:5-8 Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, God.

Heb. 2:3-4 Lord, God, Holy Spirit.
3:6,7 Christ, God, Holy Spirit.
6:4-6 Holy Spirit, Son of God.
9:14 Christ, Spirit, God.
10:15-22 Holy Spirit, Jesus, God.
10:29 Son of God, Spirit.

1 Peter 1:2 God the Father, Spirit, Jesus Christ.
3:18 Christ, God, Spirit,
4:14 Christ, Spirit, God.

2 Peter 1:16-21 Lord Jesus Christ, God, Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:13 Spirit, Father, Son.


Jude 20 Holy Spirit, God, Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev.2:18-29 Son of God, Father, Spirit.
14:12,13 God, Jesus, Spirit.
16:21-17:6 God, Spirit, Jesus.
22:7-19 God, Lamb, Spirit.
22: 16-20 Spirit, God, Lord Jesus.

They know what it is but the take a liberal Christian view of such things. They even tinker the Bible to justify their beliefs.