I'm sure potential answerers know what I'm talking about but for those who don't, here's a little background:
Not so long ago, the Chinese, Japanese and Korean languages once used the same set of kanji. These characters are now known as 旧字体 in Japanese and 繁体字 in Chinese. "Traditional" characters are still used in Taiwan and Hong Kong. However, Mainland China and Japan have simplified many characters, sometimes in the same way and sometimes differently. The traditional character 學 for learning has been simplified to 学 in both Mainland China and Japan, whilst 讀 for reading is written as 读 in Mainland China and 読 in Japan.
Now, more to the point...
My Japanese friend and I were practising calligraphy just for fun a couple of days ago. When I wrote the traditional characters 讀 and 學, she was very puzzled and asked me what those characters meant.
I was quite surprised, as I usually have no trouble equating 讀 with 読 or 读, and 學 with 学. Even though I learned traditional characters in Taiwan, I can almost always understand Japanese kanji and Mainland Chinese simplified characters. My friends from Mainland China can also read traditional characters in Taiwanese books with ease.
However, it seems that my Japanese friend is not aware of "alternative" character forms. Incidentally, she is very highly educated, a humanities major in university, so I was even more shocked as I expected someone well versed in literature to have at least a basic knowledge of 旧字体/繁体字 used in daily life... characters as elementary as 讀/読 and 學/学.
Is this generally true of Japanese speakers? Do traditional characters never appear anywhere in Japan, not even in printings of classic novels and poetry? (In Mainland China, for example, many shop signs and literature books still use traditional characters. In Taiwan, meanwhile, it is common for people to write in shorthand using simplified characters and "trendy" for shop signs to use Japanese characters.)
In short, why do the Japanese seem to be less aware of "alternative" character forms than the Chinese and Taiwanese?
Thanks!!
Do most Japanese have trouble recognising "old" or "traditional" kanji (旧字体/繁体字) and why?
2009-01-16 2:29 am
回答 (7)
2009-01-16 6:20 am
✔ 最佳答案
Obviously, your friend is not educated enough.If your story is true, she never reads pre-war books and documents. She never watch pre-war movies. She cannot read many of the common family names of the Japanese such as 渡邉 廣田 小峯 齋藤 澤村 髙嶋 to name a few. Obviously she has never read 學門ノスヽメ by 福澤諭吉.
Although we do not learn kyujitai at school any more, they are still in use everywhere. Most of the Japanese have no problems reading them, if not writing. We do not write them (except for proper nouns) any more; however, they are still within the reach of our common sense.
It is not an intelligent work to generalize the exception. Yes, your friend is an exception; she does not have a common sense of the Japanese.
2009-01-16 1:04 pm
1. Because it's JAPAN, and they don't want everything to be associated with China, so they change things to make it Japanese, not Chinese.
2. Japanese want to write faster, so they simplify the kanji, and the newspaper has one kanji everyday that has been simplified.
3. Not every Japanese or Chinese will recognize the thousands and thousands of Kanji which exist. And if you say you do, then I will call you a liar. Some Japanese just didn't learn the kanji before it was simplified, but there are kanji books which a Japanese can have that will tell them the kanji. And most of the time, the kanji isn't even very different from the simplified version, as you see with your examples.
4. The reason they are less aware of the "traditional" characters is because Japanese is a different language. They dont' use the same set of kanji as you do.
2. Japanese want to write faster, so they simplify the kanji, and the newspaper has one kanji everyday that has been simplified.
3. Not every Japanese or Chinese will recognize the thousands and thousands of Kanji which exist. And if you say you do, then I will call you a liar. Some Japanese just didn't learn the kanji before it was simplified, but there are kanji books which a Japanese can have that will tell them the kanji. And most of the time, the kanji isn't even very different from the simplified version, as you see with your examples.
4. The reason they are less aware of the "traditional" characters is because Japanese is a different language. They dont' use the same set of kanji as you do.
2009-01-16 7:05 am
I have a feeling that your friend would probably be able to read those old-style kanji if she encountered them in a body of text. Calligraphy has little or no context, therefore it's not easy to recognize unfamiliar characters in it.
2009-01-16 6:03 am
Simple reason is there is no real reason to learn old or obsolete kanji unless you like to be on gameshows.
I'm by no means an expert at reading kanji, and from a studying point of view, there's no reason for me or the average Japanese person or student of Japanese to know or study old obsolete Kanji. That's the whole point, they are old and obsolete.
Just like English speakers, most English speakers are fine with modern English, and even for people who are English majors, reading "Old English" is a pain manytimes, even middle and early modern English is different. The vast majority of English speakers would have a tough time reading Old English.
I'm by no means an expert at reading kanji, and from a studying point of view, there's no reason for me or the average Japanese person or student of Japanese to know or study old obsolete Kanji. That's the whole point, they are old and obsolete.
Just like English speakers, most English speakers are fine with modern English, and even for people who are English majors, reading "Old English" is a pain manytimes, even middle and early modern English is different. The vast majority of English speakers would have a tough time reading Old English.
2009-01-16 5:22 am
Most of Japanese don't need to know Old Kanji in daily life. That is reason. In addition, compulsory education has not been teaching any roots or background of new Kanji so that students don't know what you are talking in Japan.
Old Kanji is still only known by elder people who are almost over 60 yo in Japan but it is not used in the society except some field of interests or pastime any more.
Many young generation has even become not to recognize new Kanji in Japan.
Old Kanji is still only known by elder people who are almost over 60 yo in Japan but it is not used in the society except some field of interests or pastime any more.
Many young generation has even become not to recognize new Kanji in Japan.
2009-01-16 4:21 am
Most Japanese would actually not have much difficulty reading kyujitai or not know about it. But the generation born between 1987 and 2001 is called "yutori sedai." They were given unrigorous education on the belief that strict education was detrimental to learning. There's a lot of learning that the yutori sedai missed out on.
If you really want to hurt your friend's feelings, you could as her, "Did you not know about kyujitai because you are yutori sedai?" The generation is that derided for supposedly not knowing anything.
However, most Japanese would have problem reading jiantizi. There are some jiantizi that is common with shinjitai, but those are the characters that had traditional shorthand. The jiantizi invented by the mainland in 1956 and 1964 tend to produce vehement reactions.
But some characters are very different, like 声 and 聲. Not everyone may recognize those two as the same. They're much different than 学 and 學. It's also become easier for people to play with kyujitai because computer IMEs will do the writing for you.
If you really want to hurt your friend's feelings, you could as her, "Did you not know about kyujitai because you are yutori sedai?" The generation is that derided for supposedly not knowing anything.
However, most Japanese would have problem reading jiantizi. There are some jiantizi that is common with shinjitai, but those are the characters that had traditional shorthand. The jiantizi invented by the mainland in 1956 and 1964 tend to produce vehement reactions.
But some characters are very different, like 声 and 聲. Not everyone may recognize those two as the same. They're much different than 学 and 學. It's also become easier for people to play with kyujitai because computer IMEs will do the writing for you.
2009-01-16 3:09 am
I think the fact that your friend who has high education couldn't recognize those characters tells that modern japanese people who were educated after the simplification of chinese characters have no choice but to resort to guessing. if you have no knowledge about then then you have to guess.and your smart friend didnt recongnize those.so it follows that they are not so common anymore.but it is also possible that she just tried to make coversation with you pretending that she didnt know those two old characters which many japanese people still have familarity with in my opinion
let me tell my experience.i used to be into this japanese pre-war writer.oneday i found a book of him which was written in the old use of higarana and traditional chinese letters and i tried to cipher them.but soon it turned out that the old writing style didnt impede my reading at all since most of the old characters are still recongnizable by shape and i could guess corresponding characters by context, which was done almost unconsicously as soon as those characters caught my eyes.after reading a page or 2 it was no different than reading modern japanese writings...
if you dont have knowledge then some words would remain uncomprehensible when presented only by themselves but once they are in the actual writings the existence of cotext would allow readers to guess with no difficulty.
let me tell my experience.i used to be into this japanese pre-war writer.oneday i found a book of him which was written in the old use of higarana and traditional chinese letters and i tried to cipher them.but soon it turned out that the old writing style didnt impede my reading at all since most of the old characters are still recongnizable by shape and i could guess corresponding characters by context, which was done almost unconsicously as soon as those characters caught my eyes.after reading a page or 2 it was no different than reading modern japanese writings...
if you dont have knowledge then some words would remain uncomprehensible when presented only by themselves but once they are in the actual writings the existence of cotext would allow readers to guess with no difficulty.
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