四川地震救災，為何一早不出動直升機救援?

下雨時不能動用直升機的其中一個因素是能見度下降
在沿海城市我們或許可以通過多次的飛行訓練去克服困難, 但四川高山地型複雜情況與難度有別於一般地區.
再者, 飛行服務隊在8號風球下出動同樣是冒著機毀人亡的風險, 他們起飛前亦要評估風險評估, 不見得這是十分容易同合理. 要知道救人時不應連自身性命危險都不顧, 這無助救援工作

另外, 官方消息從來沒有公告過有傘兵失踪或傷亡, 你所提的應該是未經證實的消息

四川救災面對另一個最大的困難就是高原地區空氣的含氧量極少, 這限制了機器的運作.而一般直昇機只在3000米以下的高度飛行, 單算國內可用於高原運送的直昇機型號, 我所知就只有米26, 米17 及專為高原環境而設的 中國黑鷹 , 可以用來救災的直升機的數量實在不多, 運載力有限, 在天氣、地型、科技都不利的情況下, 徒步到達災區更為實際

2008-06-02 22:08:15 補充：
【明報專訊】「米-171」是俄羅斯米里設計局設計、由俄羅斯烏蘭．烏德航空生產聯合公司生產的直升機，是著名的米－8T型和米－17型的現代化改進型，於1988年開始研製，1991年投產，中國於2008年開始從烏蘭．烏德航空工廠購買零件，自行組裝「米-171」。
這型號直升機主要用於執行貨運、客運和救援任務，載客量為20至26人，據悉擅長於氣候極壞、地面能見度低或高原地區安全飛行和陸。但也有專家指老式的米-171應對惡劣環境的能力有限。

2008-06-02 22:09:09 補充：
很不幸, 早前提到的天氣與地型環境令空難成為事實
希望閣下可以了解多一點國情, 少一點誤解

2008-06-05 10:20:06 補充：
有關補充性的提問回應1：

對於閣下提到傘兵傷亡性報導, 我認為應以實事求是的科學精神去應對.特別是在今天資訊性爆炸的年代, 消息來源引證是比消息內容更為重要
由於到目前為止還未得到官方機構證實, 單憑這程度的消息來源去引證事例是不足為信

如果想去借傘兵是否殉職一事去論證空降不比直升機安全, 我就更認為沒有必要
因為兩者同樣都要面對困難, 同樣都要冒上生命的危險, 不能直接比較

2008-06-05 10:20:36 補充：
有關補充性的提問回應2：
至於為何要先用傘兵空降排除直升機空運這方法, 動機絕對上是爭取時間為大前題
除了客觀的天氣環境及安全問題外, 我們還要考慮如何將利用珍貴的空運資源提高救災效率, 因為直升機的用途實在太廣泛, 除了用作運輸外, 還可以用來作低空偵查
任何事都靠直升機來完成反過來可能會變相浪費資源阻礙救援

有人說，下雨不能用直升機救援。但是香港飛行服務隊，在8號風球下仍有出發，救助離島危急病人入院。

唔係落雨就唔可以用直升機, 係視乎有無「雷暴警告」, 行唔行雷啫,
係8號風球下, 風速 < 100km/h , d 機組人員係務住生命危險去救人ga,
同埋d 機組人員之後都講返救人ge 經過,
佢地話架機一起飛, 已經搖得好勁, 到左佢地open 左隻機門, 搖得仲勁,
佢地救人果時, try 過幾次先勾到架機個勾(hold) , coz 風速好大...
當然佢地都睇過個situation 係okay 佢地先救人啦...
所以呢... GFS 真係好偉大 -3-

2008-06-02 21:43:34 補充：
in fact, o個個case 係好emergency, 個patient 好似係有生命危險,
so 飛行服務隊係8號風球下都出發救人...

recently i always heard Chinese people---mainland, HK, and oversea....say China is number 1 country in 21 centoury, China is super power country in econmicy and militrey, China going to recovey Taiwan as easy as 1,2,3....

but what i read, watch and eye see, China is a very unbalance country.
you can see people in disaster area using computer and cell phone, but just cross street, people living standard are like the third world country---.

i dont want to say too much, but i surely believe China can not handle any major actions once outisde the wealthy cities.

i live in US, every year this country have no less nature disaster than China, but no matter where it occur, the help is right there in time. between 2006 to 2007, US had floods, wild fires, Katrina distory the whole city, tornatoes.... that was over 800 billions lost. well, but we feel no shortage or effect to our daily living....

so, what i say is Chnia still a poor country and if you look it as this way, you should understand why they can not use full support to help the people in the quake.

please dont tell me helicapter can not flight in the extreme condition, it just depend when it produced and what kind of all weather equipment it had installed.

lucky China had not attact Taiwan yet..... that will be another disaster to the brave red army...

2008-06-05 12:46:26 補充：
i had read and heard the media keep BS the China is number 1 in 21 st century...... you never heard that? too bad, then you missed a lot of happy faces la.

in New Orleans, those are national guard, their duty is ---protect the law and order. not major in rescus and which is FEMA job.

2008-06-05 12:50:22 補充：
unforturely the red army have to be EVERYTHING, from EMS to pass water bottle, from building engenree to traffer control.... everyone of them in the same unit are superman...
are they the EVERYTHING or are they the ONLYTHING the China official can give?

2008-06-05 12:52:41 補充：
i am not push US high and step on China. i just expect China should do much much better that what they did.

2008-06-07 03:35:37 補充：
i am not condemn China and admit USA is number 1.
my point is China Gorernment should perpare all these natureal disaters so people can live more safely. that is their RIGHT.---- i just dont want to see people suffer so many times each year.

2008-06-07 03:40:05 補充：
today, i just heard the people talk in the radio show complain China Grovernt only care is their power and money. i know lots of officals looking ways to move their money out from their secret income. i know because i am one of the people helping them to move the money.

2008-06-07 03:44:23 補充：
yes, China is improving, but poor people still stay deep poor. China gorvent can do much much better but just not much centrel and local officals are really care.... very sad to think about it.

2008-06-07 03:57:27 補充：
you saw solders enter the area of disaster city. it is normal procedule by FEMA in here. once a state grovernor declared the state emergency. this state national guard will be call in to patrol the area. it happen in every states with situation --- flood, wild fire, earthquake, tornato...etc.

2008-06-07 04:10:33 補充：
country too many population, too big and too poor is not a excuse.
CCP in power over 60 years, with our Chinese intelligence and hard working ability.
grovernt should doing much better job. instead, they wasted all the years in political game.
stop to argue here, God help our Chinese fellow.

2008-06-07 04:31:03 補充：
AA on the shoulder patch = army airborne
the resident quality in New Orleans ?? there are majority black and low income people in most area.
P.S. Bingo Fuel, can you tell me how many people got killed by solider in N. O. ?

2008-06-08 03:12:13 補充：
AA = ALL AMERICA?

hahahah...LOL

2008-06-08 03:14:23 補充：
why not put on a patch with hand signal of V ? = victory la.
that is a joke.

樓上兩位已經講左吾少，我補充一下。
1、為什麼一早不出動直升機救援?
——駐成都陸航地震發生當天下午已經出動，不過目的是收集情報，地震周邊地區通訊斷絕，當地情況不明。
2、為何要出動高空跳傘兵？
——同樣是收集情報，注意飛機高度在5000米左右，原因在於當地是山地，地形很高。
3、軍方總共出動150名傘兵空降，其中4名死亡，10名失踪!
——未見諸正式報道，估計為謠傳。
4、下雨不能用直升機救援。但是香港飛行服務隊，在8號風球下仍有出發，救助離島危急病人入院。
——當地天候很差，下雨也有出動。但在汶川使用直升機的問題不單單在于天氣惡劣，更重要是當地地形惡劣。各位如果有去過當地，就可以體會到。本人在兩年前曾經自成都乘車前往九寨溝，途中經過汶川。大致上從都江堰開始就會沿江邊公路北上，一路上地形險要，公路一邊是高山，另一邊則是懸崖，懸崖下是江水，相當險要。再加上能見度低，在山間飛行絕非易事。在報道中，某些居民區位于山谷間，直升機飛進去后甚至無法調頭，需要倒退進入。Mi-26直升機之前兩天由於能見度低無法出動，報道中提到其要求的飛行條件是能見度5公里，最後飛行時能見度為2公里！
地形和天候惡劣的另一個重要影響因素是，導航和調度難以進行。
飛行服務隊的水平的確很高，但在海上海平面高度飛行，與在山地高海拔飛行，同樣在天氣惡劣條件下，其難度完全不可比。
5、香港警察PTU部隊，亦有從直升機攀繩落地的訓練，以便在不平坦的山丘空降。未知中國軍方有無此種訓練? 若然有的話，為何不採用?
——當然會有此類訓練。但直升機在當地主要用於輸送物資進災區以及運送傷員出災區，因此開闢降落場是必要的。
6、其他存在問題：
——蘇聯在阿富汗大量採用Mi-24、Mi-8直升機，吾見得蘇聯直升機高原性能差。
——Mi-17直升機單價只有黑鷹一半，如果一定要分優劣，用兩架Mi-17與一架黑鷹比較似乎較爲公平。

2008-05-30 18:48:05 補充：
關於空降兵參與救災情況，士但搵個網站：
http://www.news365.com.cn/jj/200805/t20080516_1872434.htm
然後是歸營：
http://military.people.com.cn/GB/8221/74407/122512/122520/7270008.html
都是官方來源。

司馬成的資料來源如何？且看其内容：
“內地網站指空降第十五軍奉命強行空降，一個連隊一百五十人跳傘，四人死亡、十人失蹤，傷者數目不詳。”

2008-06-01 18:52:08 補充：
To grandtom:
Being a Chinese citizen, I never heard people nearby talk about that China is No.1.
I am not talking about who you hear from, or why. But I think you should hear more.
And, PRC DO offically say this country is a third world country. You don't need to say again.

2008-06-01 18:52:15 補充：
You talk about New Orleans Hurricane. I just want to ask you one question, I saw the soldier march in the city with M-16 rifle, why? Why they didn't bring more something like foods? Just tell me why. While in Sichuan I don't see any PLA soldier carry a weapon.

2008-06-03 14:30:43 補充：
另一篇15位傘兵情況報告：
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2008-06-03/095215672100.shtml

2008-06-03 17:40:24 補充：
到目前仍未搜救到失事直升機，据報道正飛行員機齡達33年，飛行時數5800小時，這是一個非常高的數字。
願飛機上的人員平安。

2008-06-06 08:38:45 補充：
To grandtom:
You talk about National Guard. Can you tell which NG unit these boys belong to?
http://www.defenselink.mil/home/images/photos/2005-09/index/Hi-Res/050904-A-7377C-0061.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/fc/20060504060755!US-SoldatenNewOrleans2005.jpg

2008-06-06 08:53:00 補充：
我不想涉及政治層面的東西，我承認我愛國，這一點無關我的國家是否有缺點，缺點大吾大。
如果grandtom想指責中國在救災中的缺點，想説明美國在這方面先進，我承認美國物質條件比中國好得多，單單直升機數量質量這一點，中國就遠遠不及。這不但是因爲中國本身經濟能力差，冇錢，而且更重要一點是包括美國在内的西方國家不願意出售高性能直升機給中國。所以現在救災直升機主要係以俄制爲主。

2008-06-06 09:00:49 補充：
但grandtom同樣忽視的一點是美國民衆與軍隊的素質。
82空降師進入新奧爾良救災，竟然要全副武裝進入，將災民視作暴民，WHY？軍隊有問題？民衆有問題？還是政府有問題？
四川地震的災民見到解放軍是怎樣的情形，網上的描述太多了。大家可以做一下比較。
再加一幅圖：
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USBP-SRT-New_Orleans.jpg

2008-06-07 07:02:26 補充：
你連82空降師既AA代表乜都吾知，我真係高估你的水平了，AA係代表All American，吾係army airborne。
既然你問我N.O.有幾多人被士兵所殺，我轉一下個問題問番你：
can you tell me how many people got killed by the residents in N. O. ?

2008-06-08 10:03:07 補充：
God，grandtom你真係以為All American係講笑？82師組建時，成員來自各個州，統計時發現每一個州都有，所以先叫All American。網上大把資料，所以話你should hear more。

2008-06-08 10:04:53 補充：
82師組建於1917年，當時有army airborne？醒小小啦你。

首先我唔係陶生同埋劉生
不過我對你的言行有D意見
首先中國話因為天氣唔好所以唔出動直昇機,佢地一早就有出動的,但係都暴露左中國嚴重冇一架打得的直昇機(唔好玩啦,美國的黑鷹係惡劣天氣都飛到,你堂堂中國一架米8竟然唔得!?)
之後佢地搵傘兵空投到災區,4死10個唔見呢番話據本人所知係未經證實...所以可信性成疑
如果係真的話假設佢地丟1000人,死4個唔見10個的話只係小兒科,唔可以果幾個而就話(高空跳傘部隊，不比直升機安全。)
中國軍方佢地唔重視空中突擊呢個戰術所以你唔會見到吊繩吊D解放軍落黎呢個場面
(其實係有的,不過用左係反恐)
不過總結黎講解放軍係有出動直昇機,不過開頭就係話天氣惡劣,飛唔到而delay左,證明左解放軍的直昇機技術雞!
同埋都暴露左解放軍少直昇機